Ep 22 | For better, for worse, for business – A chat with my husband, Andrew

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For my very first guest on Seasons in Business, I’m starting close to home! My husband, Andrew, has been beside me through every season of Sarah and Maude — from giving me the nudge I needed to rediscover letterpress to supporting me through redundancy, self-employment and almost 15 years of building a creative business.

We talk about confidence, creative fulfilment, the unseen work behind a small business and the importance of noticing how far you’ve come. You’ll also discover the business word Andrew never wants to hear again, what he really means when he describes my work as “fine”, and what he would change if he were my boss for the day.

• Read the episode transcript

  Sarah: Welcome to Seasons in Business, a podcast for creative business owners who want to build something thoughtful and sustainable at a pace that actually feels good. I'm your host, designer and printmaker, Sarah Phelps. And if, like me, you're craving a slower, more spacious way to grow with a little gentle encouragement along the way, you're in the right place. So turn off your notifications, grab a cup of tea or coffee, and get cosy.

  Hi, and welcome back to Seasons in Business. This episode feels really special because I'm actually welcoming my first guest to the podcast, and I'm starting pretty close to home. My guest today has seen and supported me through every season of my business. He knew me before Sarah and Maude existed when I was still working as a designer. He watched me find my way back into letterpress, didn't blink an eye when I brought a 100-year-old press into our house, and he even thought launching a podcast was a great idea.

  We usually hear the story of a creative business from the perspective of the person running it, but building a business also becomes part of the life you share with the people closest to you. And I wanted to find out what that journey has looked like from the other side. So it felt only right that my very first guest should be my husband, Andrew. So hi, Andrew, and welcome. This feels very strange.

  Andrew: It's a bit strange, and thanks for having me. It's interesting when you were just going through your intro there. I'd almost forgotten how long you've had the business. But yeah, it's been ages since we were in Canada and you were doing your letterpress thing and doing your screen printing thing and slowly building up the idea for the business. It's been a long time now, hasn't it?

  Sarah: It’s been 15 years in January.

  Andrew: Yeah. My God. Yeah. I hadn't even thought of it.

  Sarah: And I should say actually that we recorded a test session weeks ago doing this. Just chattering away, and it was really just to make sure that I was set up for guest recording with my new equipment, that I knew how to use the software. And as we chatted away, I realised how perfect you would be as a guest. So here we are with you as my first guest.

  Andrew: It's a privilege.

  Sarah: So you've known me for almost 20 years, and you were actually part of the story before Sarah and Maude was even an idea. You were the person who actually nudged me to take the letterpress course that started everything. And I don't know if you remember, but I'd signed up. I almost didn't go to the first session because I was going on my own and didn't feel very confident. And I remember calling you beforehand because I was thinking, "I'll just... I'll go straight home. I won't go." And you gave me the little pep talk I needed to get there and walk through the door. I'm wondering what made you encourage me to take that course, and do you remember that call and that conversation?

  Andrew: I don't remember the conversation, but I know why I would've given you that pep talk. I think it's largely because we're both the same when it comes to these sorts of things. If I was doing something new, like, I don't know, if I wanted to try a boxing class—I'm just making something up here—but it was something I'd really wanted to do and had in my head for months, on the day of actually doing it, like dropping by the boxing gym on the way home, it's pretty likely that I would just walk right past it and talk myself out of it at the last minute. I think we're both like that when we're on our own. Together we're fine, of course, but on our own we're both kind of like that.

  I recognise that same feeling in myself, and I know that sort of way of approaching things is a great way to miss out on something you really want to do, just because of a social nervousness about the whole thing. That's never really a good reason not to do something, right? And because we both experience that, it's easy for me to give you the pep talk. But of course, I would need you to give me the same pep talk in the future.

  Sarah: Yeah. And I'm always here to give you a pep talk.

  I think that's what it was. It wasn't that I didn't want to do the class. I was looking forward to it for weeks. And then the day of, I was just about to leave work and I thought, "Oh, I really don't want to go. I'm not going to know anyone there." And like you said, "I'm going to feel awkward," and it's so much easier to just go home. But then if I hadn't done it, I wouldn't actually be doing this now. I wouldn't be printing with letterpress now.

  Andrew: I think that's absolutely the case. It was one of those decisions that kind of changed everything for you. And there are other reasons for that as well, because the print shop you were at didn't just have one or two presses. There were loads of presses, all in various states of repair. So the experience you had with all the different presses and all that stuff actually put you in a much better position than most other people being introduced to letterpress for the first time. I think that really worked to your advantage, even though it was probably more than you thought you were getting yourself into.

  Sarah: Yeah, I definitely didn't go into that session thinking I would be starting a business within, like, 12 or 18 months, and that, you know, 15 years later I'd be printing letterpress stationery.

  But yeah, I did that course, and then afterwards I went pretty much every Monday to hang out with people who loved printing and type and letterpress. And I made some really good friends there, and that's when I started designing and printing my own products too. So it's like it just really snowballed.

  And I guess that leads into the second question I had, which, you know, obviously neither of us knew where that first decision to go and walk into that print shop would lead. I'd always been sure and so determined that I never wanted to be my own boss. So when I did decide I wanted to try working for myself, what did you think and did you believe it could work?

  Andrew: I had absolutely no doubt that you could do it and that it could and would work. There are some reasons for that, I guess. I was working at the time, so we were in a decent financial situation to be able to make that sort of choice. I guess we were in a slightly privileged position to be able to do that.

  Also, at the time, you knew some other people. If I'm not mixing up the timelines, you knew some other people that were going through something similar. You knew Andrea, who was starting a business at the same time. I think the timing was right in a number of ways, right? As a fallback, I could help you with stuff. But you also had a cohort of other people that you knew that were doing something similar.

  Sarah: I think it was made easier because obviously, I started my business because I was made redundant. I hadn't been happy in my job where I was, and the redundancy happened, and I wasn't particularly upset about losing that job, but I was worried about what would come next.

  I don't think I would've made the jump if it had been my choice to run my own business, because like I said, I always said I didn't want to be my own boss. But I think it kind of forced me into a place where it's like, okay, do I find another job or do I try and do this myself? And obviously with your support, and also a few clients to start off with as well, made it a lot easier.

  It just kind of happened. I didn't really have a big plan. It's like I came up with a logo, and I set up a Facebook page and an Etsy shop, and that was it. And I just kind of gave it a go. Kind of sink or swim, I guess.

  Andrew: It evolved. It didn't burst out of nowhere. You did have some design clients that stuck with you, right? So it wasn't just straight into stationery, letterpress goods and that sort of stuff. There was a transition. This is the evolution I was talking about. The letterpress part of the business evolved over time.

  Sarah: I remember saying that I'm doing 90% design and 10% printing, and I kind of want to swap that and do, you know, do a lot more printing. And it did take a few years to get to that point, it really did. And I remember when I got to that point, and we kind of realised "Oh, actually, that shift has happened now. I remember when I wanted this," and that was the goal, and it did actually happen.

  Andrew: That's a difficult switch to make as well as we know, because a big corporate design job can bring in a decent chunk of money in one job. But in stationery in particular, because there's material costs involved, getting the income balance to switch, it takes years.

  Sarah: It does, and it did take years.

  One thing that really stands out to me, and it is about the redundancy and the day it happened. Because like I said, I wasn't upset about losing that job, but the uncertainty was worrying, and I did get a bit upset, have a few tears. And I remember you saying, "It's only January, but this might be the best thing that happens to you all year because it gives you the freedom to work for yourself."

  Andrew: Yeah. And I meant that.

  Sarah: Yeah. And my question was going to be, do you remember feeling as confident as you sounded, or were you partly trying to reassure me?

  Andrew: No. I was as confident as I sounded. That wasn't just me reassuring you, because when you came home with that news, I wasn't devastated by that news at all.

  The real feeling inside of me at the time was, "Oh, thank God." Because now you can kind of spend the time to figure out what you actually wanted to pursue doing, as opposed to just continuing with the agency job doing work for somebody else. Yeah, so I mean, I was genuinely, I guess happy is not the right word, because I wasn't overjoyed. You came home and said, "Oh, I lost my job," and I wasn't jumping up and down going, "Yay, this is great." But I did feel genuinely that this was a good thing. I meant that. It wasn't just me being reassuring.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: It's almost like I saw the future or saw what was possible.

  Sarah: If only! It felt like an opportunity. It would be easy to look at it as something negative, but yeah, pretty quickly, I think it was the next day, I was like, “No, Andrew's right, this is actually an opportunity.” I would not have made this decision myself. It's kind of been forced on me, but let's give it a go and see what happens.

  I wonder if there was a moment that it began to feel like a real business to you rather than something I was trying. Was there a point where it kind of felt like, "Oh yeah, Sarah has a business now"?

  Andrew: No, that's a really good question. I don't think there was ever that point, because of the way your business has evolved and changed over time. Even when we were still in Canada, your business was changing as you went.

  You got new equipment. You got the Gocco printer. You were doing those really interesting, really colourful cards. You had some custom stationery design work come in, which was nice, so you could start to see that business build up. You were producing cards for retail sale. You were doing some letterpress and combinations of those things, but at the same time, you had design work that you weren't involved in printing.

  And these things, like I said, the balance of that changed over time.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: And so it's hard to say. The whole thing just slowly evolves over time, and it's one of these things you stick with. Maybe for some people there's a point where suddenly everything picks up, but that's not what happened, right? It evolved.

  Sarah: No, I was thinking about this myself, and I don't think there was ever a moment when I thought, "I've made it." It was all so gradual. I think I just reached a point where I have the business that I want, and the balance feels more right.

  Andrew: Right. And there's never a routine either, is there?

  No one week is ever the same as the next in this business when you're working on your own.

  Sarah: Yeah. And you've just actually really led very well into my next question, which is, having watched the business grow, what have you seen behind the scenes that you don't think other people realise is part of running a small creative business, whether that's good or bad?

  Andrew: I suppose everyone has the idea that you're not earning a wage any more. You're not getting £20 an hour or £10 an hour, or just some wage for your work. That's just not how it works. You can have an idea that that's the case before you get into running your own business, but you don't realise the extent of it, particularly when there are jobs behind the scenes that need to be done that are not small.

  If you're doing something like designing or redesigning the website, there are choices, obviously. You can get somebody else to do it for you, or if you know how to do it yourself, like you do, you can take the time to do that. The process can take a number of months from beginning to end.

  I'm just picking on a website redesign as an example. This is one of those behind-the-scenes things that can chew up your eight working hours a day for weeks and weeks on end. And there's a whole bunch of regular and rotating things that have to fit around all the other stuff you do, which has to fit around the actual client work.

  Everything is shifting all the time, and the management of that is probably not something people see coming either: how difficult it is to balance all the different things that need to be done. You're the CEO, the accountant, the chief financial officer, the chief technical officer—you're everything, and you're the worker.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: Right? You're doing it all. I think people can have an intuitive understanding that, of course, you have to wear these different hats when you run your own business. But the extent of that management problem—how real it actually is—would probably surprise a lot of people.

  There are a lot of balls you're juggling.

  Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's really easy to look at the client work as paid work, because that's what brings in the money, and then see everything else that needs to be done as unpaid work. In a way it is, but some of it, like the podcast and the guides and the other things I do, I'm doing for a reason.

  It's to build audience, it's to connect with people. And I mean, even with the podcast, when I started this, I knew it would be a lot of work I didn't realise quite how much. But I really enjoy it. Does it pay me right now? No. I don't make money from it, but it's a creative outlet, and it's something I enjoy doing, and it allows me to talk to other creative people and share those conversations.

  Andrew: And people are... I mean, people get into business for different reasons, right? Some people are in it only for the money.

  But you and I are different, right? We're sort of in it because this is our life, and we want to be fulfilled in our life. Part of being fulfilled is having some money, which is great, so your business makes money.

  But other parts of it are a creative outlet. And the other thing I forgot to mention earlier, which relates to what you were just saying, is that being your own boss and running your own business can be lonely.

  Andrew: Right? So another benefit of doing things like the podcast, which isn't bringing you in any money and isn't directly a marketing tool for your business, is that it is a sort of networking tool.

  You get to share your experiences with people out there. You often don't know who those people are—the podcast listeners—but it can be useful and valuable to them, and that feels good. It feels good in the same way that, as a university lecturer, it feels good when I see my students learn.

  So there's a feel-good aspect, but there's also a social aspect that you would otherwise be lacking in your business.

  Sarah: And yeah, I mean, you pointed out our careers are very different. You're a lecturer at university. You absolutely work creatively because you're a problem solver as well in your research.

  So I do think what you do is creative. You're not in the creative industries, and I think over the years that has been helpful. Yes, you've been able to teach me the joys of double-entry bookkeeping—which you've now handed off to me, and I have to do all by myself. I can actually do it by myself now, after 15 years! But I think it's helpful to have someone outside the creative industry, because you're close enough to understand what's happening and what I'm trying to do, but you can also look at the business much more objectively than I can. So when I get one of my crazy ideas, you can say, "Well, hang on a minute.

  Have you actually thought about this?" I know there was a time a few years ago when I used to ask your opinion about absolutely everything, and eventually I think we got to a point where in the nicest, kindest possible way, you reminded me that you weren't actually my target audience. And I think that actually gave me the push I needed to take more ownership of my decisions.

  That felt like a big step because I went from kind of relying on somebody else to having to trust my own gut. And I think that it made a big difference because my business is me, really. I think when we work as business owners and especially creative, it's like you are your business, and the person that knows your business best is you.

  Andrew: I think you're being a bit too hard on yourself here. I don't think you were relying on me. I think you were just sometimes not confident enough in your own decisions. It was more like you were getting a second opinion—someone to critically evaluate stuff—and that's fine in many circumstances.

  But creative decisions, those are... Like, you're asking the wrong person.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: So in those situations, I think you're better off making sure this is something that resonates with you, rather than having my approval, because my approval is meaningless in that case. I might suggest, "Oh, this doesn't feel right," or, "This doesn't sound right."

  But that's because I write in an academic tone and you write in a personal tone. I would change every paragraph, every sentence and every word, and it would be completely different from you.

  Sarah: Yeah. We've had that conversation a lot about writing, because I do write very conversationally, and there are times when I've had you...

  I used to get you to read through blog posts, newsletters and things, and you'd be reading them as if they were academic texts, in a way.

  Andrew: Your voice is very different than mine.

  Sarah: Yes.

  Andrew: And because I automatically have critical analysis switched on in my head, when I read something like that, this is what it feels like I'm reading it for.

  Sarah: Yes.

  Andrew: And for you, that's not what you want me to be reading it for.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: And if you want me to be reading it for, I don't know, its approachability or that sort of thing, then I'm just not the right person for that.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: And yeah, we got there in the end. But I think in the beginning you were being a little bit too hard on yourself.

  It wasn't... You didn't rely on me.

  Sarah: I think now what I tend to do is use you as a sounding board. I'll say, "I've had this idea. What do you think?" Like when I had the idea for the podcast, I said, "I think I might start a podcast," and you thought it was a great idea right from the start.

  Andrew: I was supportive, but I didn't think it was a great idea right from the start.

  Sarah: Oh.

  Andrew: No, I didn't! This is another benefit, I think, of our relationship: we're different people and we come at things from different angles. You're doing things for your reasons, which can be personal reasons, creative fulfilment reasons, those sorts of things.

  And I'm looking at it like, "Okay, so this is going to be a new part of your business—or something adjacent to your business—and it's going to take up some time, either from outside your business or inside it."

  How much time is it going to take up? Is that time well spent? I'm working out the balance.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: It's not like you had an extra five hours in your week. You needed to squeeze this new thing into time that was already fully booked.

  Right? So I was looking at it from a more practical perspective. Supportive, yes, but pragmatic too.

  Sarah: Yeah, I think that's, pragmatic is the right word because, yeah, you were supportive, but you did say, "Are you sure you have time for this?" And I thought, "Well, there's going to be a learning curve." And there was a very steep learning curve with all of this.

  But I think I'm definitely at a point now where I know, okay, I can record an episode and edit it, and then have it ready for upload. There is a certain amount of stuff that happens behind the scenes in, you know, preparing a blog post or getting the graphics ready and things, but they're just part of a workflow now.

  So it's easier for me now to sandwich that into the schedule, and it gets absorbed into some of the marketing time I set aside.

  Andrew: You just mentioned something that I think other small business owners listening might envy a little bit. When you're doing your podcast, you can do the editing and the uploading, but you can also do the marketing material for it.

  You already have these skills. You don't need a production team behind you for the, for the podcast, right?

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: You really came into this—not just the podcast, but your business in general—with a lot of the skills required to run a business without having to outsource those things.

  Which is both beneficial in that you're not paying somebody to do it, but also a drawback because it takes a long time to do these things, right?

  Sarah: Yeah. The only thing I don't do for myself right now, and I do outsource right now, is photography.

  Andrew: Yeah.

  Sarah: And that was purely because it's just not my strong point.

  It's not something I can do quickly or easily. I end up wanting to tear my hair out, so I do outsource that.

  Andrew: The photography thing is one of those things I didn't have clear in my head because, again, as a non-creative person, I had very naively assumed that the art of taking a photo was a pretty simple process.

  You get some light, you lay things on a table, you take a photo, and Bob's your uncle. But it's not that simple. Professional photographers are magic people.

  Sarah: Yes.

  Andrew: They really are. They do such a great job.

  Sarah: I do work with someone who takes all the photos of my work, so print projects, greeting cards and things.

  I started outsourcing during COVID, I think—during the lockdowns—because I thought, "I've got all of this work. I need to have it photographed, and I can't do it justice." Since then I've been working with Holly Booth, and I just deliver her a box of stationery and some props.

  I say she just works magic, like she waves a magic wand. I know it's not that easy because it's hard work, but what Holly can do in a day I wouldn't be able to do in a week. The time that frees up for me to work on my business and on client work, without worrying about that, more than pays for outsourcing it.

  Andrew: Yeah. And you are that person for other people.

  Sarah: I guess, yeah. I'd not thought about it like that.

  Andrew: But you're the magic person who brings design and print to life for other people in a way they couldn't do themselves. This goes back to something we were talking about earlier: the management difficulty of running a business and all the different hats you have to wear.

  If you did the photography yourself, it would be another hat—another job you have to do—which would take up even more of your time, leaving less for other necessary things.

  Sarah: I would say there's never nothing to do when you have a business.

  Absolutely. I mean, I'm sure it's the same for a lot of jobs, but when you have a business and you are the person that does everything, there's never nothing to do.

  Andrew: Yeah.

  Sarah: In what ways has the business shaped our life together that you maybe didn't expect?

  Andrew: I mean, we do have a bunch of printing equipment in our house.

  Sarah: We do.

  Andrew: Taking the question literally, from a physical perspective it has absolutely changed how our life looks, because there's a giant letterpress machine downstairs. And over your shoulder right now, there's a foil press. We have all sorts of weird stuff.

  We have cabinets of inks and stuff like that.

  Sarah: It is a good point, though, because we're in our own house now, but we rented for years. Whenever we were moving and needed to find a new place to live, it didn't really matter what the rest of the house was like—but was there room for a printing press downstairs?

  Andrew: Yeah.

  Sarah: Absolutely there was. That was the main requirement.

  Andrew: Yeah. So in that sense, it's because of the equipment involved in your particular business. And it's not just the printing press and cabinets of ink; it's the shelves and shelves of paper and so on. Just loads of stuff. In some cases, though, the business allows us more flexibility.

  My job is sometimes flexible and sometimes not. But when I have flexibility, you can sometimes make it so that we can live our lives together and do these things. There are also times when having your own business is less flexible, because you can't choose when work comes in.

  Sarah: Yeah, definitely.

  Andrew: But at the same time, I think ultimately you're better off doing what you're doing than working for somebody else. You can take these creative days. You can meet up with your other creative friends, go for a walk, have co-working sessions and so on.

  Your schedule is your own. I think the flexibility you have to manage your own life changes your sense of fulfilment. You can modify things to make sure you're focusing on what's right for you.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: And that's ultimately good for both of us.

  Sarah: Absolutely.

  Andrew: I'm just thinking back to situations where you were working in an agency and weren't creatively fulfilled. You just weren't as happy, right? And now you're the architect of your own happiness, and that has an impact on us both.

  Sarah: The architect of my own happiness. I like that.

  Andrew: You can quote me on that.

  Sarah: Is there something I've created, or maybe even a moment in the business that you feel especially proud of?

  Andrew: Oh, dear. I didn't see this question coming.

  Sarah: Putting you on the spot. It's funny, because I was thinking about this recently. Someone else actually asked me, and I struggled. I said printing our own wedding stationery was my—

  Andrew: I was going to give the same answer, but it felt like too much of a cop-out.

  Too easy an answer. Because that was good. That was a really nice stationery suite. But there have been other jobs you've done that have given me the tingles. I've looked at them and thought, "Good God, that is brilliant."

  Sarah: The thing is, you're kind of the king of understated reactions.

  I can show you something, and I can be so proud of something, and you'll say-

  Andrew: My typical response is, "Oh, that's fine."

  Sarah: And I say, "Fine?"

  Andrew: And I say, "Yeah, fine—like a fine cheese or a fine wine." I think that's the routine we pretty much always go through, isn't it?

  Sarah: And I know when I do get a reaction from you that is more than that, I know that's when it's extra special, and you're really impressed because you'll maybe kind of do a, "Wow, that looks amazing."

  Right. "That's fine" is like high praise. Before we get to the last few questions, I thought I'd lighten things up a little bit. I have a few quick-fire questions, so these don't need a lot of thought—just a quick answer, if that's possible. What is the strangest part of my job?

  That we have a hundred-year-old print press in the house?

  Andrew: Well, yeah, I guess 'cause you sometimes forget those things, don't you? Yeah. 'Cause it's been there for so long.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: You know what? The single strangest thing we've done as a result of your job was getting a specialist printing press removal person to come to our house, disassemble the press, drive about ten houses down the street to the house we bought, bring the printing press into the new house and reassemble it in its new location.

  Because when we moved from renting to buying, we literally moved down the same street.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: But we had to get a specialist removal for that, and that's a result of your job. So I'm going to go with that as the strangest thing.

  Sarah: That's a good point.

  Yeah. And it was just earlier this year. The reason we get a specialist is because my press is cast iron. It's over 100 years old and quite fragile. I mean, it's heavy, but it is quite fragile. It would be incredibly heavy for us to try to move ourselves, and if it slipped or fell, it would be a disaster.

  Andrew: Catastrophic.

  Sarah: I think it cost us more to move the press than it did to move our entire house full of furniture in the end. It was only down the same street, but it's worth it every time just to know that she's travelled safely.

  Andrew: These are those unusual things, and of course they require specialist setup and stuff like that too, right? The people involved in this very niche business know what they're doing, so it's good to have the specialists involved. I just need to go back to what you said before you started asking rapid-fire questions that require short responses.

  I don't give short responses.

  Sarah: That's true.

  Neither do I.

  Andrew: Because part of my job is lecturing at the university, right?

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: We can keep going.

  Sarah: We'll see how well this works. We'll aim for rapid fire—rapider fire than the others, maybe. Right. What is the most Sarah business moment you can remember?

  Andrew: This was a great idea you had. It's part of having a luxury business and thanking your repeat clients for choosing you by throwing in some luxury items. So you bought this really nice hot chocolate, and we tested it first, right?

  It was really nice hot chocolate.

  Sarah: We had to do the quality-control test, just to make sure.

  Andrew: Exactly, yeah. My God, were there chocolate bars that you tried out too?

  Sarah: I did at one point. I used to put really nice little mini chocolate bars in. We ordered a sample pack and tasted all the different ones.

  Andrew: Did we end up eating the rest of them, or did those actually make it out to the clients?

  Sarah: I think with those ones, we picked the nicest one and then I ordered some, and we didn't eat those.

  But the hot chocolate...

  Andrew: So these are things you bought through your business with every good intention of sending them to your best clients, and they never made it because they ended up in our bellies.

  Sarah: Or just there would be an emergency, a chocolate emergency.

  It's like, "Oh, I've got some upstairs in the client box."

  "I'll just use it, and I'll replace it," and then there's none left. I've actually just ordered some more hot chocolate.

  Andrew: Oh God, here we go again.

  Sarah: Is there a business phrase that you hear me use way too often?

  Andrew: I can tell you there are some phrases I never want to hear again.

  Redesign. It's one of your favourites that's come up over the years. Sometimes a redesign is as simple as, "You know what? These three colours that are part of my brand—I think I'm going to change them to these three other colours instead." You might have some perfectly good reasons for that, which I completely don't understand, because that's not me.

  That's you. And feeding those small changes through everything that touches your business can take a really long time, as we've seen before. So yeah: redesign.

  Sarah: I don't know what it is. Like, I think, I don't know if it's maybe a designer thing. Normally, when I'm really busy with other things, I'll say, "Oh, I really want to redesign my website."

  And it's like, that is not a five-minute job, and it does not need to be done now. So yeah, if ever I say the word redesign, just say no.

  Andrew: Well, thank you for the permission. That's on tape now.

  Sarah: Okay. If you were in charge of Sarah and Maude for a day, would you change anything?

  Or what would you change?

  Andrew: If I was in charge? If I was your boss, or if I were you? Because these are different things. If I were you, it would be very difficult. If I were your boss, I would find it a lot easier.

  Sarah: Okay, if you were my boss.

  Andrew: Because I can't do what you do, right?

  Sarah: Okay. So if you were my boss for the day, what would you do? What would you change?

  Andrew: If I was in charge of your business for a day, just one day, I would say let's take the day off.

  Sarah: Oh, I like that. Do you want to be in charge for one day? Then you can give me the day off?

  Andrew: Yeah, except I would also need the same day off. You know what? Let's look forward to some time in December, when it's out of term time and everybody else gets days off. We'll have one too.

  Sarah: After putting you on the spot with those, I just want to take a final look at the big picture. If someone listening now is just beginning to build their creative business, what would you want them or the person supporting them behind the scenes to know?

  Do you have any words of wisdom?

  Andrew: What I would want them to know is that it's possible to make a success of it. It's difficult, but it's possible. The advice I give anyone who wants to start their own business is to stick with it. Things change. You don't know exactly when in an economic cycle you're getting into the business, so you have to stick with it. I think anyone who starts their own business with a good idea and the right support can make a success of it if they put the effort into the right places.

  Sarah: Yeah. And finally, last question, is there anything about the business you've always wanted to say, but I've never thought to ask?

  Andrew: I don't think so. Maybe one thing we don't do as much as we should is take a step back from the business and look at how far it's come.

  We've talked today about the slow evolution of the business, but I realise I've never stopped, you've never stopped, and we've never sat down and had a conversation over coffee like, "Gee, Sarah, I'm so proud of you.

  Look at what you're doing now compared with when we started this. Look where it's come." Because, like we said before, there haven't been any magic moments where it suddenly took off from one stage to another. It's been an evolution, and it's hard to notice the change.

  It's hard to feel the change when things change gradually, right?

  Andrew: So perhaps that's it. Perhaps what we need to do is have a purposeful reflection on how far you've made it with this.

  Sarah: I like it.

  Andrew: I think it's brilliant. It's not just you who needs to do that; it's both of us. I've also neglected the successes you've had because we just go with it. Things happen, and you keep pushing on.

  Sarah: Yeah, I think that's really good, because I tend to do that on a yearly basis from a business perspective. I look back and think, "Okay, how was this year on paper?

  Of the goals I set, what did I achieve? What did I tick off the list? What was difficult?" But I don't look at the big picture. In January, I'll have been doing this for almost 15 years, and the me of 15 years ago would have loved to be in this position. That person would've been really happy with this now.

  So I think sometimes you've got to look back.

  Andrew: Before we end, can I ask you a question? Can I get the final question in on this podcast?

  Sarah: Okay.

  Andrew: If your current self, sitting in front of the microphone right now, could teleport back in time to the Sarah who'd just come home and told me she'd been made redundant, would you tell that Sarah to go ahead with her business?

  Sarah: Yes. Absolutely. There are things I would do differently along the way, but I wouldn't not do this because it is fulfilling. It's satisfying. It's challenging. It's exciting. It's frustrating. It's stressful. It's so many different emotions and experiences all wrapped into one.

  For all the tough times, I would never not do it.

  Andrew: So that's ultimately the definition of success then, right? You would go back and make the same decision again.

  Sarah: And do the same thing again. Aw, what a nice way to end. Thank you.

  Andrew: Look at me, I should be the podcast host here.

  Sarah: Yeah, you're going to want to start a podcast next. We've just been chatting away for ages. I don't know how I'm going to edit this down, because it was only supposed to be 30 minutes. While I've got you here, I want to take this opportunity to say thank you, because you've given so much support over the years, and I really couldn't imagine being on this journey with a better or more supportive person by my side.

  You're pretty great, so thank you.

  Andrew: Aw.

  Sarah: And happy birthday too, because it's your birthday!

  Andrew: So it is.

  Sarah: Yeah.

  Andrew: No, I'm happy to be a guest. And like I said, of course I'm always happy to support the business. I like it. It's fun, it's interesting and it's very different. So even from a personal perspective, I'm happy to do it.

  Aside from the "we love each other, we support each other anyway" perspective. And it's particularly cute when you thanked me for taking the time to do this, because it's not like it's difficult to get me. We live in the same house.

  Sarah: Well, that's it. Yeah. We are sat in the same house in separate rooms. So on that note, we probably should go and put the kettle on and have some birthday cake.

  Andrew: I think that's a good idea.

  Sarah: Yeah. But yeah, before I go, thanks to everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed hearing a creative business story from a slightly different perspective, and maybe it's made you think about the people who have supported you on your journey too.

  As always, if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support the show by hitting follow, sharing a favourite episode, or leaving a rating or review. It all helps more people find the podcast. If you'd like to say hello, you can find me on Instagram @seasonsinbusiness, or email me at podcast@sarahandmaude.com.

  Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.

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